{"id":69576,"date":"2024-11-18T09:24:29","date_gmt":"2024-11-17T23:24:29","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.neds.com.au\/blog\/?p=69576"},"modified":"2024-11-21T08:48:28","modified_gmt":"2024-11-20T22:48:28","slug":"jon-jones-canelo-alvarez-and-the-question-of-legacy","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.neds.com.au\/blog\/2024\/11\/jon-jones-canelo-alvarez-and-the-question-of-legacy\/","title":{"rendered":"Jon Jones, Canelo Alvarez and the Question of Legacy"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Legacy is a thorny issue.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s constantly moving and changing, both during career and post. The question becomes how do the history books look at someone? Rather than how do we look at you in the moment?<\/p>\n<p>For Jon Jones and Canelo Alvarez, I think we are reaching a point where a once-glorious legacy may be on the line in a way that seemed unfathomable a few years ago.<\/p>\n<p>On the issue of skill, Jones and Alvarez are two of the best ever in their respective sports.<\/p>\n<p>In a young sport like MMA, Jon Jones is on the shortlist alongside Georges St Pierre and Khabib Nurmagomedov for the mythical Greatest of All Time mantle. He got to that point by dismantling legends like Shogun Rua, Lyoto Machita, and Daniel Cormier.<\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Jon Jones Choking Until His Opponent Collapses\" width=\"500\" height=\"281\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/wCjyS7zvPPs?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Canelo couldn\u2019t possibly reach those heights in a sport that\u2019s being going since Moses wore sandals. But he has been the biggest, most consequential star in the sport since Floyd Mayweather Jr.<\/p>\n<p>After a period early in his career where he plainly ducked Gennadiy Golovkin, Canelo eventually fought and beat prime GGG twice (I would argue GGG won the first one).<\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"HIGHLIGHTS | Canelo Alvarez vs. GGG 1\" width=\"500\" height=\"281\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/JWifURCydX4?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>After that, Canelo chased legacy by beating up Sergey Kovalev at light heavyweight, then unified the super middleweight division, hunting down belt holders like he was internet with the blonde ring girl in Paul v Tyson.<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\" data-width=\"500\" data-dnt=\"true\">\n<p lang=\"en\" dir=\"ltr\">For all of you wondering who the blonde in the ring is. <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/Outkick?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">@Outkick<\/a> has you covered. <a href=\"https:\/\/t.co\/56sJ5Cq9ol\">https:\/\/t.co\/56sJ5Cq9ol<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&mdash; Clay Travis (@ClayTravis) <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/ClayTravis\/status\/1857641097029423135?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">November 16, 2024<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><\/p>\n<p>He became just fifth man to fully unify a division in the four-belt era.<\/p>\n<p>But after both men relentlessly chased greatness for a decade, something flipped.<\/p>\n<p>For Canelo, the change appears to be traceable to his loss to Dmitry Bivol in 2022. It was an Icarun loss where Canelo, who had spent years chasing challenges. He flew too close to the sun fighting Bivol who was simply too big for Canelo.<\/p>\n<p>For the only time in his career, Canelo was bullied.<\/p>\n<p>Since the loss, Canelo has fought five times and won each of them times by an uncompetitive unanimous decision. He has beaten the brakes off of the very end of Gennadiy Golovkin, then John Ryder, Jermell Charlo, Jaime Mungia, and Edgar Berlanga. He would have been, at worst, $1.10 favourite in every single one of those fights.<\/p>\n<p>He\u2019s still the undisputed champion of the 168-pound division.<\/p>\n<p>For Jones, it\u2019s a bit of a different story. While activity has defined Canelo\u2019s career, the opposite is true of Jones. For various reasons that include positive steroid tests, significant legal troubles, and injury, Jon Jones has been an inactive fighter.<\/p>\n<p>In any case, the tipping point for him when it comes to taking real challenges seems to have been his highly contested \u201cwin\u201d (he lost) over Dominick Reyes in 2020.<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\" data-width=\"500\" data-dnt=\"true\">\n<p lang=\"en\" dir=\"ltr\">What did you score this fight? <a href=\"https:\/\/t.co\/jxKqokkx8S\">pic.twitter.com\/jxKqokkx8S<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&mdash; Dovy\ud83d\udd0c (@DovySimuMMA) <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/DovySimuMMA\/status\/1839585765023498579?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">September 27, 2024<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><\/p>\n<p>That fight was Jon\u2019s last at light heavyweight, then it took him three years to return to the octagon at heavyweight where he beat the very beatable and previously beaten Ciryl Gane in March 2023 for the heavyweight championship of the world.<\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"JON JONES VS CIRYL GANE\" width=\"500\" height=\"281\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/RIZBnls_usM?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Then, in 1b for the most embarrassing events this weekend, Jones beat the piss out of a 42-year-old Stipe Miocic off a four year layoff who, straight after the fight, retired by saying \u201cI\u2019m done. I\u2019m hanging up. I\u2019m retiring. Thank God.\u201d<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\" data-width=\"500\" data-dnt=\"true\">\n<p lang=\"en\" dir=\"ltr\">BREAKING: Stipe Miocic has retired from the UFC. <a href=\"https:\/\/t.co\/s9hYV1GLFD\">pic.twitter.com\/s9hYV1GLFD<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&mdash; BIGPLAY (@BIGPLAY) <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/BIGPLAY\/status\/1858035351408795723?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">November 17, 2024<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><\/p>\n<p>I find it hard to believe that anyone but Jon Jones wanted Stipe Miocic in that cage. And in the UFC, Jon Jones gets what he wants.<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\" data-width=\"500\" data-dnt=\"true\">\n<p lang=\"en\" dir=\"ltr\">Jon Jones is glad UFC is reverting to old gloves for <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/hashtag\/UFC309?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">#UFC309<\/a> because the new ones are &quot;very uncomfortable.&quot;<\/p>\n<p>&quot;I was actually really stressed thinking about, &#39;How am I going to go into fight week wearing these gloves I don&#39;t even want to train in?&quot; <a href=\"https:\/\/t.co\/3cZmV9WW6l\">pic.twitter.com\/3cZmV9WW6l<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&mdash; MMA Junkie (@MMAJunkie) <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/MMAJunkie\/status\/1856818758838288443?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">November 13, 2024<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><\/p>\n<p>He is still the (very much disputed) heavyweight championship belt holder.<\/p>\n<p>Both men, great as they are, have a boogeyman in or around their division. And they are both avoiding that boogeyman like the plague.<\/p>\n<p>Jones is ducking Tom Aspinall.<\/p>\n<p>After beating Miocic, Jon was asked specifically about Aspinall and he decided to thank Jesus Christ and Donald Trump.<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\" data-width=\"500\" data-dnt=\"true\">\n<p lang=\"en\" dir=\"ltr\">JON JONES INTERVIEW BIG NEWS!!!!!!!!<br \/>TRUMP DANCE \ud83d\ude02\ud83d\ude02\ud83d\ude02\ud83d\ude02<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/hashtag\/ufc309?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">#ufc309<\/a> <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/hashtag\/JonesMiocic?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">#JonesMiocic<\/a> <a href=\"https:\/\/t.co\/yEhRHo05PU\">pic.twitter.com\/yEhRHo05PU<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&mdash; Eduardo Aranda Jr (@ArandaEddie) <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/ArandaEddie\/status\/1858034877075243113?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">November 17, 2024<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><\/p>\n<p>Even though Joe Rogan said Aspinall\u2019s name, the best Jon could do was say that he has a lot of options.<\/p>\n<p>In the post-fight presser, Jones said he wants \u201cf**k you\u201d money to fight Aspinall. While he\u2019s right to demand it and should get it, the UFC isn\u2019t prone to giving it.<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\" data-width=\"500\" data-dnt=\"true\">\n<p lang=\"en\" dir=\"ltr\">I included this table in an article a few years ago, but now it is completely unredacted so that the years 2014-2016 are now visible. <a href=\"https:\/\/t.co\/JDEnIsU1V1\">pic.twitter.com\/JDEnIsU1V1<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&mdash; John S. Nash (@heynottheface) <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/heynottheface\/status\/1737569420375982255?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">December 20, 2023<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><\/p>\n<p>He\u2019s setting himself up for a fight with the brass and a way out.<\/p>\n<p>We saw it on fight week. We\u2019ve seen it on Twitter.<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\" data-width=\"500\" data-dnt=\"true\">\n<p lang=\"en\" dir=\"ltr\">Jon Jones has been tweeting an afwul lot in the past 24 hours during fight week\ud83d\ude05 <a href=\"https:\/\/t.co\/uW24h2ZrTz\">pic.twitter.com\/uW24h2ZrTz<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&mdash; The Fight Business OG (@TheFightBizOG) <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/TheFightBizOG\/status\/1856242812330590510?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">November 12, 2024<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><\/p>\n<p>Jon doesn\u2019t want the smoke.<\/p>\n<p>For Canelo, the question of the boogeyman is more complex.<\/p>\n<p>He does not have a fight booked for his usual date in May, but as it currently stands the favourite is Chris Eubank Jr.<\/p>\n<p>Eubank Jr is a mediocre fighter living off his father\u2019s legendary name. If that fight is booked, Canelo will again be an unbackably short favourite.<\/p>\n<p>The boogeyman sitting out there for him is the ferocious David Benavidez, who has just booked himself a fight with the equally ferocious David Morrell at light heavyweight.<\/p>\n<p>Clearly, therein lies the rub. Light heavyweight is too big for Canelo, and Benavidez is currently fighting at light heavyweight, in large part because Canelo showed no interest in a fight at super middleweight.<\/p>\n<p>However, given the money that Canelo brings to the table, I am positive Benavidiez would starve himself for six months to get back down to the 168-pound limit to give himself a shot at Canelo.<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\" data-width=\"500\" data-dnt=\"true\">\n<p lang=\"en\" dir=\"ltr\">Canelo Alvarez said that he asked for 200 mil for Benavidez  because he is a risk and he only brings 25lbs to the table but if the money is right he will beat him tomorrow \ud83d\ude33<a href=\"https:\/\/t.co\/yLU4o2iXFf\">pic.twitter.com\/yLU4o2iXFf<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&mdash; Hassan (@Hassanwellss) <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/Hassanwellss\/status\/1820651369130553726?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">August 6, 2024<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><\/p>\n<p>So, there it is.<\/p>\n<p>You have two icons who are both holding belts hostage, refusing to fight the best fighters they can, because of legacy?<\/p>\n<p>Is beating washed up legends in Jones\u2019 case, or never any good nobodies in Canelo\u2019s, worse for legacy than taking on all comers right until the end?<\/p>\n<p>Some will only look at the record, some will look at who makes up the record and understand the context in which the record came. Those who seriously consider what the legacy of a legend is will do the latter. And they will acknowledge that both men are damaging themselves in the annals of history.<\/p>\n<p>Both are legends, no doubt, but they are not perfect. Both have had steroid and ducking opponent issues earlier in their career (<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.espn.com.au\/mma\/story\/_\/id\/8395233\/jon-jones-defends-decision-not-fight-chael-sonnen-ufc-151\">GGG for Canelo and generally the concept of a short-notice opponent for Jones).<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>You could reasonably counter me and say that fighting only the best competition isn\u2019t a fair standard to hold them to given they\u2019re older guys who should be looking to cash in on their names.<\/p>\n<p>Fair enough, but they\u2019re also both holding the belts hostage.<\/p>\n<p>Neither Jones nor Alvarez needs a belt to legitimise them. They have big enough names to demand high purses in the case of Canelo, and not complete dogshit in the case of Jones.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re not going to give us a chance to see who the best at your weight class is, then that\u2019s fine. You don\u2019t need to do it anymore. You\u2019ve already spent a lifetime proving your excellence.<\/p>\n<p>But you must give up the belts.<\/p>\n<p>The way they\u2019re conducting themselves is like Henry and Tommy in Goodfellas. Where Jimmy brought them along and taught them how to make a living on the street, they didn\u2019t extend the same courtesy to Spider, who was a kid just like they were ten years earlier.<\/p>\n<p>More than anything, though, the fight business needs changing of the guard fights. Anthony Joshua just had one and he lost.<\/p>\n<p>Sometimes, though, the old guy wins and elevates himself to another level. Duran v Barkley springs to mind.<\/p>\n<p>So does Poirier v St Denis.<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\" data-width=\"500\" data-dnt=\"true\">\n<p lang=\"en\" dir=\"ltr\">Dustin Poirier knocks out Benoit Saint-Denis!! <a href=\"https:\/\/t.co\/xs9NGSmtwR\">pic.twitter.com\/xs9NGSmtwR<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&mdash; AJ (@PrestigePrince9) <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/PrestigePrince9\/status\/1766697687808696411?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">March 10, 2024<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>At the moment, Jones and Alvarez aren\u2019t giving us a chance to find out.<\/p>\n<p>Instead, they\u2019re trying to have their cakes and eat them too.<\/p>\n<p>They are holding onto the belt at all costs while refusing to take on anyone that could challenge them.<\/p>\n<p>They\u2019re not giving us a changing of the guard fight. They\u2019re not allowing new blood in.<\/p>\n<p>They\u2019re hurting the ecosystem of the fight business.<\/p>\n<p>If that doesn\u2019t at least impact a legacy, I don\u2019t know what could.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><b><i>Like what you read from our hard-hitting columnist?<\/i><\/b><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><b><i>Follow\u00a0<\/i><\/b><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/guywholikesspo1\"><b><i>@Guywholikessport<\/i><\/b><\/a><b><i>\u00a0on Twitter or check out his\u00a0<\/i><\/b><a href=\"https:\/\/guywholikessport.wixsite.com\/guywholikessport\"><b><i>FULL BLOG HERE\u00a0<\/i><\/b><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"author":37,"featured_media":69577,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[107,8298,344,463],"tags":[108,9352,8260,3252,3281,3094,503,9765],"hub_post_cat":[],"class_list":["post-69576","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-boxing","category-guywholikessport","category-sports","category-ufc","tag-boxing","tag-canelo-alvarez","tag-guywholikessport","tag-jon-jones","tag-mma","tag-opinion","tag-ufc","tag-ufc-309"],"acf":{"md_tip_date":null,"md_tip_date_end":null,"md_market_url":"","tip_date":"18\/11\/2024","event_country":"Australia"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.neds.com.au\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/69576","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.neds.com.au\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.neds.com.au\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.neds.com.au\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/37"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.neds.com.au\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=69576"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.neds.com.au\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/69576\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.neds.com.au\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/69577"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.neds.com.au\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=69576"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.neds.com.au\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=69576"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.neds.com.au\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=69576"},{"taxonomy":"hub_post_cat","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.neds.com.au\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/hub_post_cat?post=69576"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}